Recently I posted a thread on the TTMB in this "help save Enterprise" thread. I made a polite comment asking if it's worth saving, or do we let it go downhill like the first Star Trek, where the third season suffered quite noticibly. Well, all I got was a blast of **** from here and there saying how dare I post such things in that thread. Well, last I checked, I live in Canada, where we are allowed to speak out mind. I wasn't being rude about it, like other trolls we know, it was just a comment. Sure, I know the Internet isn't Canada, but that's not the point. Censorship isn't favoured by too many in the Free World. What image does this portray about TT? Star Trek is about living in a Free Society, where everyone's opinions are valued, as long as they aren't rude about it like a troll, one would assume. Even then, the right to protest is allowable, as long as it's peaceful and respectful. Don't go off smashing windows or killing people, but as long as it gets your point across, why not. So I then replied to the people who blasted me, and said no, your comments are irrelivant, and basically said there what I said here, including that if we myst adhere to such rules, we might as well live in the middle east where religion is the law of the land and women might as well wear burqas and keep silent. I then recieved a memo from a admin/mod saying my comments once again were not acceptable. Oh well, if the TTMB wants to go downhill and not uphold the values of Free Society, so be it. Reminds me of Iraq and the "Information Minister". Do you really want some guy dictating what you can and can't have infomation about? Probably not. That's why our media is not owned by the government. (CBC doesn't count since it sucks) So, that's about it eh. I'm all about free speach, not censorship. I wasn't rude like a troll. Our country is no longer run by religious dictatorship. (thank goodness eh). Why am I even comparing it to religious dictatorship? It's just an example, don't get all hyped up. One could also compare to Hitler, Hussein, whatever. Dictators dictate what can and can't be done. I'm not saying the TTMB has the same values as the middle east, Hitler, Hussein, I'm merely stating that they aren't allowing some of the basic fundamental rights of a free society, to which Star Trek upholds dearly.

Well I am going to make my FIRST post on Bob's site a "rant", gotta get it off my chest or I will explode! Thanks for the place to vent Bob!! ;)

I have been posting on the Toronto Trek MB since almost the inception (even on that crappy old MB they had), and have found it fun, and informative and a great place to yak about events, Star Trek, Conventions, gatherings, etc.

Now the Committee, Tcon, Toronto Trek (whatever the heck name you want to use) decides you cannot discuss certain conventions on the board. Now I am not talking promoting it, marketing it, etc I am talking about discussing how certain aspects of it are working, how autographs are done, nothing earth shattering there.

You can call it what you want....my word is CENSORSHIP!! Now I know that the board is run by Tcon and if they want to censor topics, far be it from me to stop them but I will be damned if I will be a part of that! You can knock SFX all you want (and Sid you have a good reason to!) but the way see Toronto Trek going, SFX will not only be MY choice of a con to attend but maybe the only one.

When a convention does not even have enough confidence in their own product and are just worried about "the competition" and feel another way to "hide from the big bully SFX" is to censor even discussion about it - that is just way out of bounds to me!

I think I will be a posting in the forums here, if that is ok with you Bob! As you know, I always follow the proper rules...even the one that says "flirt with Miyu"! :D

I feel much better now!
Bryan

Psst! Bryan. Go see my post at the 'other' place. :huugs:

Every forum has their own policies. I can understand TT's stance especially where SFX is concerned, but disagree on some of the approachs towards meeting their goals. (Hope that makes sense.)

Their board, their rules, and all that, y'know?

I'm rarely visiting there anymore..too drained from too many flame wars, and too much beating my head against unmoving surfaces (there and elsewhere).

Y'all are welcome here anytime.


Just please take some time and check out the rest of the place....some sections are a bit dusty from lack of use..I'd love to see em all jumping....might mean I'd have to get a few moderators set up to help run things. :)

just archiving my post there here for posterier...

I'm rarely out this way lately...too much to do, and much of the arguments here make my head hurt.

Yes, certain cons have a 'mean on' for TT and would love to see it fold.

Yes, if the commercials want TT's help in promoting themselves, they should give TT a nice wad of cash for the favor.

If people are too stupid to know the difference between promotion and discussion, well......

I've promoted TT on my website for 6 years or so.
I've created a discusion area for folks to discuss TT on my fan forum. (About 3 years ago I think....)
I've done a bunch of other stuff too over the years as well....

I've pointed alot of folks in this direction over the years....alot of us have.
If a couple of mentions about the money-grubber'expo' is all it takes to distroy this house of cards....I might start to think I've been backing the wrong horse here.


Lets be blunt:
If the concern is the commercial cons, then simply blanket things and make -any- discussion of the commercials verboden. That means, guests, events, who/what/where/when and complaining.

This site is for the discussion of the events put on and promoted by TCON.
Its their place, their rules.


Personally, I think TT has more to worry about than the 'expo', but thats my opinion.


If the 'enviroment' here for whatever reason isn't to anyones liking...there are other forums.
I run one. (ok, I run several.....)
Dave runs one.
etc.

ok, heading back down the rabbit hole....got a 3 page 'todo' list to continue hammering at.....

Originally posted by Rosemary@May 14 2004, 01:39 PM
Psst! Bryan. Go see my post at the 'other' place. :huugs:
Rosemary,

I saw your nice post on the TTMB, Thanks!!
I actually sent you a PM as well.

Remmber: PORTHOS RULES!!! Give him some more cheese!! :lol:

Originally posted by Silent Bob@May 14 2004, 03:04 PM
Every forum has their own policies. I can understand TT's stance especially where SFX is concerned, but disagree on some of the approachs towards meeting their goals. (Hope that makes sense.)

Their board, their rules, and all that, y'know?

I'm rarely visiting there anymore..too drained from too many flame wars, and too much beating my head against unmoving surfaces (there and elsewhere).

Y'all are welcome here anytime.


Just please take some time and check out the rest of the place....some sections are a bit dusty from lack of use..I'd love to see em all jumping....might mean I'd have to get a few moderators set up to help run things. :)
Thanks for the welcome!!

The point I have tried to make is if TT is constantly worried about the mention of SFX then that is a problem.

Promote what is good about TT, push the masquerade, art room, video room, room parties, dance, etc and not even worry about what the Corporate SFX is doing.

Man oh man, the word SFX seems to make people jump...BOO...SFX...I said it again! Really the part of this that bothers me is the censorship, hell it is there board, you want to censor topics, go right ahead "their sandbox, their sand".
But you know this year will be a tougher year for TT18, I would think you would want to stop alienating/pissing off the people you KNOW/make that KNEW were going to buy weekend passes/book a room etc.

I know I will be taking 90% of my budget for TT18 and putting it towards SFX 2004, Jackie and I figure on going to TT18 just for Sunday, buying 1 day passes (saves us 3 nights hotel plus diff in weekend passes vs. 1 days).

Hey I still think almost all the MB people are wonderful (and a lot I consider good friends) but I think I need to keep my postings elsewhere until the "air clears" a bit there.

Whew....did not know I ranted so much...... ;)

Originally posted by BryanR+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BryanR)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Now the Committee, Tcon, Toronto Trek (whatever the heck name you want to use) decides you cannot discuss certain conventions on the board. Now I am not talking promoting it, marketing it, etc I am talking about discussing how certain aspects of it are working, how autographs are done, nothing earth shattering there.[/b]
Bryan, really, none of that is what is trying to be stopped. What caused the request of people to not advertise the other cons was because someone posted their entire guest list, which was seen by some as inadvertant (as Rosemary explained extremely well) advertising.

Nobody wants to stifle the discussions about how the other conventions work, how autographs are done, etc, just exclusively the advertising. When "who cares?" posted the entire guest list, that's how it was seen.

My latest (and longest in a long time) post explains that. Rosemary asked what is and isn't "vorbotten" - the "who is going, do you want to get together for dinner and drinks" is not a problem; likewise the post-con/expo discussions, and such; pre-con discussions of guests, so long as it's subtle enough is likely to be overlooked, but that's really not how the original post came through to some.

<!--QuoteBegin-BryanR
When a convention does not even have enough confidence in their own product and are just worried about "the competition" and feel another way to "hide from the big bully SFX" is to censor even discussion about it - that is just way out of bounds to me![/quote]
It's not really that at all, at least not for me Bryan.. honestly. My latest post on the TTMB does explain what my real worries are.

I like posting here too and I am going to be blunt.

If you want censorship, join sfx's ******** mail list. They use, er abuse the free services of a yahoogroup as a way to advertise, and dont allow free discussion at all, except a few choice exceptions.

Hobbystar has been understood to want to take over and put away all other fan run cons and take in the benefits for their uses, and the cash they make goes into their pockets, not like fan run cons where it goes to the con.

I think T Trek has the right, er, the need and responsibility to make people aware of our policies - and that's all they did, nothing else, nothing more. Something else T Trek's policies allow for, the belief that people can be responsible in how they post in public forums for a yearly event - I guess SFX doesn't share that same faith in it's attendees <_<

If they are so big, why don't they have the testicular fortitude to allow it's attendees to speak up?

Oh that's right, it means that too many people would see each other raising the same concerns over and over again and might, just might have to act upon it like T Trek has set the trend for many, many years ago.

These thoughts are mine alone - and I am being brief...don't get me started.

We'll see if something can be done about a few public safety concerns about their operations this summer :nintanto:

Repost from the other site for perpetutity.

Originally posted by Anonymoose+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Anonymoose)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Silent Bob
Yes it will.

Its called competition.

If the idea here is "If -we- don't mention it, our regulars won't find out about em", then someone somewhere has thier head logged firmly in a certain hole. (No, not directing that at you Dave.)

Lets see...

People can -
Look in various magazines and see what the competition is doing.
Look at their website and see what they are doing
Look at their mailings and see what they are doing
Etc.
Hang on Bob, it's not that at all. It's not a "if we don't mention it, our regulars won't find out about 'em" - it's the advertising period. We know full well that people are going to find out about it.

We just don't want it advertised here for free at the expense of our losing attendees. That's what it's all about.

We're not trying to stop people from doing the post-con/expo reports; we're not trying to stop people from talking about going, but we are trying to stop the free advertisement of it on the forums that are centred around Toronto Trek.[/b][/quote]
In other words, feel free to talk about going to SFX, feel free to talk about what happens there or how they work, but we're asking people not to help them advertise on that message board for free.

Dave,
Define "Advertising".

There is the rub.

I fully understand, and to be blunt, in no way want SFX to put TT down.

You say you folks aren't trying to censor, but you are.

If posting about the guests for the competition is such a concer, how many guests is ok to talk about, and how many is 'too many'?

Its now established : Don't post their guest list.

When does it become a 'don't talk about their BNG"?


Is it ok -after- their 'expo', but not before?




I'll be honest, I sympathise with y'all.

But, when censorship in -any- form rears its head...I get a bit 'annoyed'.



It is advertising if their staff posts the info.

Is it is advertising if their members post the flyers?
Mention their events?
Their guests? Partially or fully?

Can I say "Bill" but not "Shatner"? ;) (Yup...thats sarcasm.....)


Keep in mind...I have a similar policy here as far as the commercial adverts go. :)
I just define things a bit looser, I guess?

stored

Originally posted by "Anonymoose"
We just don't want it advertised here for free at the expense of our losing attendees. That's what it's all about.


You need to define what is and is not an advertisement.

I -fully- agree...if the 'expos' want to use your con to promote their 'event', they should pay you. Its only fair.

But what -is- an advert?

You allow the fans to discuss their event...but to what point?

It is now established that:
- post-con/expo reports are ok.
- Talking about going is ok.
- Discussing the *ENTIRE* guest list is not.

It is also established that Commercial advertising is not allowed, unless its paid for.


Andrew summerized Daves intent by saying "there's a line, so please watch it"..

Andrew..... -where is this line so that everyone knows where it is so that they can "watch it"?

Originally posted by Silent Bob+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Silent Bob)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I fully understand, and to be blunt, in no way want SFX to put TT down.[/b]
However that's exactly what is happening.

Originally posted by Silent Bob+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Silent Bob)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If posting about the guests for the competition is such a concer, how many guests is ok to talk about, and how many is 'too many'?

Its now established : Don't post their guest list.[/b]
Right, because, as I've already said, it's the big splash that is catching people's attentions instead of the total value of *everything* that happens at the con.

Originally posted by Silent Bob
When does it become a 'don't talk about their BNG"?
Unfortunately, that's not my call to make. If it were my call, there wouldn't be a "don't talk about their BNG" moment.

I think that the terms in seeing their BNG are going to be the point at which people can make their own decision. The cost for that is outrageous, not to mention the price to get something autographed.

For most, that alone is a deterrent.. MOST, not ALL, but most. Some people will fork out that kind of cash, and that's their decision.. I respect that completely.

Originally posted by Silent Bob
It is advertising if their staff posts the info.

Is it is advertising if their members post the flyers?
If it lists an entire guest list, as I've already outlined, then it comes under the category of inadvertant advertising.. something we don't mean to do, we all know happens, and that we're asking people to try and avoid.

If it were their staff posting it, the entire thread would already have been shutdown, locked and hidden in the Holding Zone. The fact that it's still continuing to be discussed shows that we're not trying to hide anything, just asking people to be aware of what they're saying and how it may affect us.

Originally posted by Silent Bob
Mention their events?
No, I don't think so.

Originally posted by Silent Bob
Their guests? Partially or fully?
As I've said, if it's not an entire list, and if it's something that falls under the radar, then it'll very likely get overlooked.

<!--QuoteBegin-Silent Bob@
Can I say "Bill" but not "Shatner"? ;) (Yup...thats sarcasm.....)[/quote]
Yes, that is sarc.. and I can understand that you're just trying to lighten the situation.

Frankly, it's a really tough row to hoe, and I'm doing the best that I can with the resources that I've got.

<!--QuoteBegin-Silent Bob
Keep in mind...I have a similar policy here as far as the commercial adverts go. :)
I just define things a bit looser, I guess?[/quote]
Honestly, I think that at this point people are overanalyzing it, and it's feeling like I'm getting the lumps from the side that I'm usually defending from the ConCom.

"overanalyzing it"

Yup. Sums it up for me.


:tclaw:

Originally posted by Silent Bob@May 14 2004, 10:54 PM
"overanalyzing it"

Yup. Sums it up for me.


:tclaw:
I'm not quite sure I see where you're going with that Bob.

Agreeing with you.

(Sorry...long day...v.bad migraine in full effect.)

Originally posted by Anonymoose@May 14 2004, 11:44 PM
I'm not quite sure I see where you're going with that Bob.
Its Bob..you expected different? ;)

Originally posted by Silent Bob@May 15 2004, 12:05 AM
Agreeing with you.

(Sorry...long day...v.bad migraine in full effect.)
Okay.. I got a little paranoid for a moment there. Seems a lot of my really good friends have seem to be wanting to screw me over lately, and it's made me a little suspicious.. almost like I have this sign on my back saying "I'm a sucker for punishment, beat on me."

Originally posted by Miyu@May 15 2004, 12:20 AM
Its Bob..you expected different? ;)
No, it was simple chronic paranoia, really.

One of these days I'll figure out that not everybody in the known universe is out to get me.

Originally posted by Anonymoose@May 15 2004, 06:39 AM
No, it was simple chronic paranoia, really.

One of these days I'll figure out that not everybody in the known universe is out to get me.
No, they are.... I just prefer the direct aproach.....when my head isn't making me think decapitation is a good thing that is........ (I -HATE- these headaches.....) ;)

Personally Dave, I think TT is worrying about the wrong things, you and the other 'staff' could have phrased things better and I think Bryan and Miko have looked too far into things at this stage.

Its sortta you're all right, but all wrong at the same time, y'know?


Peace. :)

Silent Bob wrote:
Personally Dave, I think TT is worrying about the wrong things, you and the other 'staff' could have phrased things better and I think Bryan and Miko have looked too far into things at this stage.

I am going to reply to this since I started it (bad me! ;) ),

I agree that PERSONALLY speaking I think TT (and Concom) are totally worrying about the wrong things if they are worried about SFX and mentioning that word, I would be more worried about "tooting the TT horn" and not worried about anything SFX (wants to do/is doing etc).

I am not sure where I "looked too far", my whole point was on the "censorship" issue, not the way the business is run. I made my post, said my piece and decided not to drag it on because I could see this could/would cause more grief (and too be honest I did not want 'Moose getting the grief for it).

Dave, I definitely was not taking a personal shot at you and in no way was I saying anything derogatory about you. If it came across that way in any aspect - I truly apologize! Never my intent!

I was at the Motor City Convention in Michigan this week (as was Stephen, who by the way was having a friendly chat with Aman of SFX - oh I used that word again but it is safe on this board :P ), and THAT IS HOW A CON should run!!
The autographs were easy to get (yes you had to pay for them and no more than a 20 minute wait for any guest including Gates McFadden, Julie Benz, Tanya Roberts, Michael Dorn, Tim Russ, Ron Perlamn), things seemed to run smoothly, over 30 media guests (including "Carlton" from Fresh Prince) and over 50 Comic/author guests. $18 US to get in and you only paid what you were willing for dealers stuff/autographs. And let me say "people were sure willing to spend on autographs - anywhere from $10 US to $50 US each).

In closing, my point of my original post was that Censorship is a bad thing in any form and I believe that it was not required about talking about our "hobby" of conventions (which SFX is as well as TT and Ad Astra). So what if SFX is in it for the $$, people go, they make money, they are doing something right!! If TT can charge $50 and break even/make a few dollars then TT is doing something right (if neither con can attain their goals then their business model is off and needs to be adjusted/ended). Straight business!! :)

Bryan

Originally posted by Silent Bob
Personally Dave, I think TT is worrying about the wrong things, you and the other 'staff' could have phrased things better
No whistlin' dixie there, huh? :)

Originally posted by BryanR+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BryanR)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I agree that PERSONALLY speaking I think TT (and Concom) are totally worrying about the wrong things if they are worried about SFX and mentioning that word, I would be more worried about "tooting the TT horn" and not worried about anything SFX (wants to do/is doing etc).[/b]
We're not worried about SFX and people mentioning that name, just in how they're getting complete and free advertising out of TT.

Like I said, we know people are going to talk about SFX, how they're run, etc, etc. It came down to that free advertising - talk about them all you want, just help us out and be consious when posting that we're not giving them that inadvertant advertisement of their entire guest list on the TTMB.

That's all that was passed along to me.

Originally posted by BryanR+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BryanR)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I am not sure where I "looked too far", my whole point was on the "censorship" issue, not the way the business is run.[/b]
I guess that the part about it that concerned me the most was how it was misunderstood (likely because I didn't explain what was being asked all that well) and the, sorry to call it this but it's how it appeared to me, "knee-jerk" reaction saying "this is censorship, I'm outta here."

One of the things that I've been fighting for internally, but apparently not getting the point across on that front terribly well there either, is that ConCom isn't the only one who "love" Toronto Trek, and don't have the exclusive rights to appreciate the con and do what they can to keep it fun and keep it going.

Believe it or not, behind the closed doors, I've been one of the people who have been fighting proverbial tooth and nail with some members of the ConCom to help them understand that the attendees and volunteers are as able to love it as much as we the ConCom do.

There's been closed-door situations where people have said some damn nasty things about some of the public discussions on the TTMB that have been started by members/attendees. Very few of us are willing to stand up and say "Hey, these guys love Toronto Trek every bit as we do, but the problem is that they don't know the inner workings and behind-the-scenes like we do, so they're making what seem like very logical suggestions to them. They don't know how many people we have working in various departments, what we're doing, what we've tried and what we've found works and what doesn't, and it's all because we haven't communicated those things to them."

At the point where this came up, I was still acting in that capacity.. I wanted (but completely failed) to convey that "hey, we know you guys love Toronto Trek, so if you can help the con by not doing such an open advertisement of SFX for nothing on this message board - let them pay buy the cow instead of getting it for free from us."

Unfortunately, to you and a few others, it came across as "Shaddap, don't even mention SFX here!"

That's completely how it was NOT meant to come out as. Unfortunately, I lacked the appropriate wording to convey what was really meant at the time of the posting. It took the better part of nearly a dozen messages to hopefully convey the proper meaning.

Do I regret that happening? Absolutely, but hindsight is 20/20, and time doesn't allow for travelling in the opposite direction, even with a Delorean.

<!--QuoteBegin-BryanR@
Dave, I definitely was not taking a personal shot at you and in no way was I saying anything derogatory about you. If it came across that way in any aspect - I truly apologize! Never my intent![/quote]
No, it certainly didn't come across (at least, not to me) as being derogatory to or about me.

I guess the only thing that I could have wished for was an opportunity to make myself clearer. I'm pretty sure that the original intent of what was said by "us" wasn't made absolutely clear and understandable, and that it may have been misunderstood by a number of people, completely because I wasn't able to make it absolutely clear and understandable as it needed to be.

Again, for that I apologise.

<!--QuoteBegin-BryanR
(as was Stephen, who by the way was having a friendly chat with Aman of SFX - oh I used that word again but it is safe on this board* :P )[/quote]
To be honest and give a bit of insight to everyone who hasn't seen some of the behind-the-scenes of the TT/SFX interaction, many of Hobbystar's employees are always very friendly to the face of any TT ConCom member. It's what happens when the backs are turned that is what causes the bad feelings.

SID had problems with James, which has been mentioned it's fair share of times.

Aman and others from SFX have actually engaged in "corporate espionage" in regards to Toronto Trek - working to find out what guest we were trying to sign and outbidding us so that they could pull that guest away and to their event.

Yes, it has happened.

It's for these reasons, and many more behind-the-scenes reasons that we are so apt to say "Please try not to advertise them, even inadvertantly, on the TTMB." That's also part of the reason why we're so anal retentive about the confidentiality about guests.

Public appearances of some of these kinds of interaction are often times misleading.

Edited to add: It should be noted that, I personally, have not had any bad personal interactions with any of the Hobbystar employees - my experiences with James have been exemplory in comparison to SID's - he's even contributed give-away items to the fan club on behalf of Hobbystar and SFX for free and without any strings attached, to which I am very appreciative to him for.

There's been closed-door situations where people have said some damn nasty things about some of the public discussions on the TTMB that have been started by members/attendees.

Bet my name/handle came up a few times huh? :D

S'ok. I'm a PITA and proud of it. You can't let those who put on the events you enjoy work in a black hole. ConCom busts their collective asses every year, but rarely seems to actually have the time to view things from the attendees side.

I've heard for -years- about how bad the Regal was, and what was regularly blown off from the ***** Panel. Now, there is no more Reghell, and we have a whole new hotel to enjoy and ***** about. "Aint it Great?" (reg. tm Amway corp.) ROFL!

Could I have phrased things differently? Maybe..but it sometimes seems to take a nuke to get attention....course, now I'm all outta ammo...or just too tired to really put my heart into a good "Rant".

The SFX info, if it had been more public, might have diffused things. Then again, your (meaning concom) hands are often tied. You want to say one thing, but can't because of professional, organizational or legal liability issues.

Hey, I'm sure a few folks would love to tell me to 'Sod Off'...but doing so publically would also annoy the folks who think I'm right...or at least right to voice my opinion.



I still say that SFX in all its incarnations are scum, and no matter -who- they have, or what they offer will not attend. I'm planning on being at TT this year. After that, everythings a maybe. I have no cons planned for 2005 at this time.


ok, back to work for me......

Originally posted by Silent Bob+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Silent Bob)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Bet my name/handle came up a few times huh? :D[/b]
There's been a few names brought up on a few occasions, but yeah, you've been one of them.

Originally posted by Silent Bob+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Silent Bob)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>S'ok. I'm a PITA and proud of it. You can't let those who put on the events you enjoy work in a black hole. ConCom busts their collective asses every year, but rarely seems to actually have the time to view things from the attendees side.[/b]
I would agree with that - I think that there's more than a couple of people who have difficulties seeing it from that perspective now because of the amount of time they've been on the other side of the con.

Originally posted by Silent Bob
Could I have phrased things differently? Maybe..but it sometimes seems to take a nuke to get attention....course, now I'm all outta ammo...or just too tired to really put my heart into a good "Rant".
It shouldn't have to take the equivilant of a verbal nuclear bomb being set off to get people's attentions. That being said, I can understand why it sometimes doesn't get through to a portion of the ConCom, including but not limited to:

- the above mentioned difficulty seeing things from the attendees side;
- not adequately or appropriately explaining the why's and how's that things get done for the con;
- listening to someone on ConCom and taking solely their word on a given matter without finding out themselves.

That last one has troubled me a little bit. There are folks on ConCom who, when they hear someone describing something they've been involved with or someone they've interacted with, taken it as gospel truth and have then closed their mind to making a simular attempt or discussing things with the "problem person" that they've heard about.

My experiences with certain folks outside of ConCom have been considerably different than others with the same people, mostly because I took into consideration what they were saying, kept it in mind, and possibly changed my approach in how I interacted with that person or people. Sometimes it worked out much much better (like how you and I can disagree about something, but not come to blows over it) and sometimes much much worse (like how I have a particular dislike of one individual who has remained curiously quiet for a couple of months now.)

I've seen folks just completely close their minds in dealing with particular individuals because of what someone else said, and completely refuse to deal with someone whom I believe had some really good ideas.

Originally posted by Silent Bob
The SFX info, if it had been more public, might have diffused things. Then again, your (meaning concom) hands are often tied. You want to say one thing, but can't because of professional, organizational or legal liability issues.
That's precisely correct. I feel a little more open speaking here, where it's not on Toronto Trek's message board.. even though I'm still liable for what I say; even though I'm still subject to my confidentiality agreement; but nonetheless, I feel less pressured to "tow the company line" here, which is why I explained it in my above message.

I only hope that people reading it now come to a better understanding of why there's the feelings that there are regarding SFX.

Originally posted by Silent Bob
Hey, I'm sure a few folks would love to tell me to 'Sod Off'...but doing so publically would also annoy the folks who think I'm right...or at least right to voice my opinion.
It wouldn't look particularly pleasant if someone were to publicly, on the TT message board, tell an attendee and possible volunteer "hey, you're a pain in the ass, shaddap and stop bitching" would it? :)

<!--QuoteBegin-Silent Bob@
I still say that SFX in all its incarnations are scum, and no matter -who- they have, or what they offer will not attend. I'm planning on being at TT this year. After that, everythings a maybe. I have no cons planned for 2005 at this time.[/quote]
I like to take one year at a time myself.. :)

<!--QuoteBegin-Silent Bob
ok, back to work for me......[/quote]
Crack that whip.. :)

Hey Moose,

Thank you ... thank you for paraphrasing for me almost exactly how I feel all this :)

In regards to my issue with James, I plan to confront him (as he invited me to do so) despite my efforts to encourage him to reply in a bit better form that his last email to me. In fact, I heard such good things about him with your dealings with him, etc...but I am disappointed with his behaviour and I feel how he carried himslef is a microsm of how his company considers acceptable.

To date, no one from Hobbystar has replied back despite my best efforts.

Oh well, plan B :P If you see me walking the halls in my 'regular clothes' and carrying some documentation, among other items...be sure to follow me as I try one last time to take him to task in how his company treats people.

Bring popcorn, it may be entertaining. :vader:

In all honesty, he seems the nicest of the bunch and I really wanted to have a civilized chat and actually help them understand some serious legal concerns (weapons, safety) while out for coffee or something - he coulda brought whomever he wanted with him too in case he was intimidated, or even scared of me (I don't know why anyone would be intimidated by me ;) ) for backup.

Enough of that garbage.

In regards to what Moose mentioned at concom meetings - I agree to a point. Personally I prefer not to discuss my past experiences due to confidentiality, but I agree there is a smaller number of people who may not understand how equally passionate regular members of TT are in comparison to concom, volunteers, etc.

I was going to write something that I may have regretted, but again, I am going to sign off for now ;)

Originally posted by SID
In regards to what Moose mentioned at concom meetings - I agree to a point. Personally I prefer not to discuss my past experiences due to confidentiality, but I agree there is a smaller number of people who may not understand how equally passionate regular members of TT are in comparison to concom, volunteers, etc.
Oh, I'll agree that the number of people who may not understand that attendees are equally as passionate is a smaller number.. but I'll state that the number of people who follow on blind faith alone, when combined with the number who don't understand the attendees are equally as passionate.. that becomes a good chunk of the ConCom.

Isn't it a nice feeling to know that regular attendees of Toronto Trek (as well as regular posters on that MB) care so much!! ;)

Hey 'Moose, excellent poll you have going there! I am not overly surprised at the early results - nice idea - instead of haviung to read 200 posts you get straight by the numbers!

Sid wrote:
In regards to my issue with James, I plan to confront him (as he invited me to do so) despite my efforts to encourage him to reply in a bit better form that his last email to me. In fact, I heard such good things about him with your dealings with him, etc...but I am disappointed with his behaviour and I feel how he carried himslef is a microsm of how his company considers acceptable.

To date, no one from Hobbystar has replied back despite my best efforts.

From my dealings with James (and I have had a few) he is a great guy and usually very open-minded! I have nothing but good things to say about him.

I actually have only spoken to Aman a couple of times so I do not know him as well but I can say he sent me a very nice (personalized) email that came out of the blue and I very much appreciated.

I know you have had isues in the past with Hobbystar, Sid (I read it off your site) but I bet if you and James had 5 minutes together it would be a very good and productive chat!

Originally posted by BryanR+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BryanR)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Isn't it a nice feeling to know that regular attendees of Toronto Trek (as well as regular posters on that MB) care so much!! ;) [/b]
I personally think so, but a few others seem to wonder otherwise.. long story, best spoken of after the con over a frosty Pepsi.

<!--QuoteBegin-BryanR
Hey 'Moose, excellent poll you have going there! I am not overly surprised at the early results - nice idea - instead of haviung to read 200 posts you get straight by the numbers![/quote]
I'm not hugely surprised by the numbers either. So far, that's polling my own chapter, and early results from people in our parent organization.

There was a bit of a kerfuffle about how I'd originally worded one of the selections - "Meeting with friends" was originally "Meeting with friends - who cares about the rest" but people kept saying "I care about the rest..." They had trouble getting past the "just vote for your primary reason for choosing the con to go to" part. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, the poll does show that people tend support more on the side of the expo model than the fan-con, but that's where the cookie seems to be crumbling.

Originally posted by Anonymoose@May 18 2004, 10:55 AM
I'm not hugely surprised by the numbers either. So far, that's polling my own chapter, and early results from people in our parent organization.

There was a bit of a kerfuffle about how I'd originally worded one of the selections - "Meeting with friends" was originally "Meeting with friends - who cares about the rest" but people kept saying "I care about the rest..." They had trouble getting past the "just vote for your primary reason for choosing the con to go to" part. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, the poll does show that people tend support more on the side of the expo model than the fan-con, but that's where the cookie seems to be crumbling.
Well I would have that "Frosty Pepsi" with you anytime!


As for the polls tending toward the "Expo variety", I think it also tends to vary more depending on your "income bracket" too. I am wondering if for people who have very little money and the mere thought of $20-$100 for an autograph is not in the cards anyways they will always tend to like the TT model where they get tons of "other activities" for their $50 admission fee.

I know for me the guests are the main thing with "socializing with friends" second as far as cons go. Now I am able to afford autographs (and have paid for Nimoy and Shatner at SFX) and love the format of Motor City Convention where I can get 15 autographs in about 1 1/2 hours and hear guests talk and the dealers room - that works for me!

And as for that "Frosty Pepsi", we can even do that in Georgetown and avoid driving into Toronto! :)

Assuming my transportation plans don't require an early departure, I'm pretty much available all throughout the con to sit n chat with folks.

The only requirements on my time are the Masqurade, and the hour long sword seminar I'm uke for as my instructors teaching. Otherwise....anytime is good with me. :)

As an aside here.... all these people who have read my comments and ben bothered by them...

I really wonder if any of them took the time to notice the numerous times I said "call me...or let me call you on my dime."? If its a matter of 'power', 'fame' or 'glory', they can have it, y'know? Its a good con, and I'd like to help where I can. If my help isn't needed or wanted, hey, no worries.

Its not worth my getting ticked about anymore. I've said my bit, and things either change or don't. For me, I do what I've always done. Go, try to have fun, hang out with friends, see some good artwork and costumes, and relax.

I did just get back in touch with Carole and will do what I can to help her out.

We'll see how everything goes.

:)

Originally posted by Bryan R@May 18 2004, 10:25 AM
Sid wrote:


From my dealings with James (and I have had a few) he is a great guy and usually very open-minded! I have nothing but good things to say about him.

I actually have only spoken to Aman a couple of times so I do not know him as well but I can say he sent me a very nice (personalized) email that came out of the blue and I very much appreciated.

I know you have had isues in the past with Hobbystar, Sid (I read it off your site) but I bet if you and James had 5 minutes together it would be a very good and productive chat!
I tried that, I asked him in a letter long ago to have a conversation over this, and no answer by him.

I have posted in emails, and board messages that if someone wants to let him know I wanted to talk to him, to pass along the message.

To date, no dice.

If you want to let him know, please, by all means. I've offered it before, and I'll offer it again.

I just find it mildly amusing that for someone who was so quick to call me 'coward' he has not taken up on the ample opportunities I offered to make amends and talk things out. ;)

About the stuff on my site - if he is willing (finally) to have the integrity and talk to me under less than intimidating form (such as his last letter to me) - I am quite willing to post an update to the situation on the top of that page too. Bottom line, I don't take kindly to bullying and intimidation. That's what he tried to do when I just wanted to be left alone, and something had to be done. If they weren't willing to reply and be diplomatic like I tried, then the world can read and see first hand what they consider acceptable. I just wish that wasn't the case and they were more reasonable. :nintanto:

Ehhhh man looky all the stuff I'm missing eh!

Originally posted by Anonymoose@May 17 2004, 05:54 PM
That last one has troubled me a little bit. There are folks on ConCom who, when they hear someone describing something they've been involved with or someone they've interacted with, taken it as gospel truth and have then closed their mind to making a simular attempt or discussing things with the "problem person" that they've heard about.

My experiences with certain folks outside of ConCom have been considerably different than others with the same people, mostly because I took into consideration what they were saying, kept it in mind, and possibly changed my approach in how I interacted with that person or people. Sometimes it worked out much much better (like how you and I can disagree about something, but not come to blows over it) and sometimes much much worse (like how I have a particular dislike of one individual who has remained curiously quiet for a couple of months now.)I completely agree with your statements...

I don't always take what one person, or even many people, say about another person/situation...

however, I wasn't there, so their viewpoint is invaluable to that situation...

likewise, however, if that particular situation/individual(s)/organisation is going to affect me personally, I try and get the other perspective, so that I may be able to understand both viewpoints, and file the information away...

in other words, I take criticisms with a grain of salt... always... because it's human nature to expand on wrongs committed against oneself/a friend... especially, should politics be involved...

the situation as described may be accurate... or it may be embellished... but without definitive knowledge/conclusions of my own, I cannot rely upon the information being gospel...

oh, and that person you alluded to above, wouldn't happen to me, would it Dave? *sheepish grin*

Originally posted by Cyrano de Bergerac@Jun 2 2004, 04:50 AM
oh, and that person you alluded to above, wouldn't happen to me, would it Dave? *sheepish grin*
No. Someone I had on my ignore list. He's been quiet for a while, so I've taken him off my ignore list. I'm hoping that he'll post a little more often so that we can see whether or not he's changed some.

Originally posted by Miko@May 29 2004, 08:38 PM
Ehhhh man looky all the stuff I'm missing eh!
You have to stay on top of things man!
Thins change real fast!! ;)