Ok, I need to vent and this place is perfect for that!!

There is a thread going on the TTMB that is driving me nuts and one poster there...ahem...kalel...I want to sit down and say "GET A FRAKKIN' JOB"!!!!

There is a post regarding the fact that a photo op costed $25 CDN and it is true they now want an additional $10 to get the .JPG emailed to you and I believe it is a valid argument that if they were going to ask for an add'l $10 for the .JPG that should have been posted ahead of time or worst case at the con - no argument.

BUT Kalel is now taking it that it is too expensive and the actor/photographer should do the pic and only charge $10 and just have the .JPG emailed to him. OK when is it that a photographer works for nothing/next to nothing and the star does the photo op for the same!!! I am tired of reading the "I have no money" from him and it is going on 3-4 years of this...ARGHHHHH!!

There are other posts sating "Toronto Trek/Polaris is different than other cons" and I will not argue that it isn't BUT the actors/photographers have a price for their services and there is no "Toronto TRek/Polaris" discount just because "they are special/different" - this convention stuff is a business!!!!

*some* of the attendess at TT/P seem to think they should get everything and top quality and pay nothing/next to nothing - hello anyone remember we are living in the 21st century and the days of free autograph cards and $5 photo ops are gone!!!

That's something I've been seeing more and more of as of late. The whole "Were poor so we should get a break" argument. Goes back to Pissteen the Troll.

I have a news flash for these "poor" fans.

Grow up. Stop thinking just because you have some mental defect and fixate on some poor actor or actress to the point of needing men in white suits carrying nets, and are incapable of actually getting a job in real society, that those of us who can operate there, should somehow subsidize you.

You can't afford it, you go with out.
Simple.

Being a fan doesn't entitle you to anything.

You want something, go get a job, start a business, collect some cans, cut some lawns, wash some cars, or turn some tricks if you're that desperate for that photo/toy/prop/book/whatever.


I'm a service professional.
Don't expect me to cut you a price break because you're poor, or we like the same show, or you once took a phaser for me during shore leave on Risa.

I got bills to pay, and need to make a living doing what I do.

Actors are the same way. Their time is worth money, and if you can't pay em, then they will go where someone can.

Too many of these fans think that actors and cons "owe" them things...Wrong.

The con owes them a safe, fun event. Nothing more. If they choose to include perks, well, that's their choice, but in the end, it gets paid for out of sponsorships and memberships. Too few, and the event goes bust.

Actors owe their fame to their fans, who like their work, and owe them polite and professional treatment. But they don't owe them hugs, and free photos, or such.

Fandom today is cheap, lazy and bugs the **** out of me.....part of why I stopped going to any cons really. Was time I started dealing with adults without mental disorders.

This is what i wrote there, in the photo thread.

I'll put in my 2 cents worth here, as a professional photographer.

Costs:
Day rate for a good photographer can run $500-1,000+ (I charge $510 + exp)
Assistants are extra.

Some photographers will waive their day rate, expecting to make it up in print sales.

When I worked at Picture People (mall chain), their print costs were $18 each. I know people who charge $50 for a 5x7.
I charge $25 for sizes up to 8x10.
So, $25 for a professional print, ready on site, that's pretty competitive in the market.

Electronic version fees vary by photographer.
$10 is -very- cheap. PP charged $65. I charge $50.
Why so much?
Because when you print it, copy it, scan it, I lose money, and when you take it to a budget place that makes a ****** print, and you tell all your friends I did that pic, they think incorrectly that -I- do ****** work. That hurts my rep, and my income, and so I and most other pro photographers, charge accordingly.

Paper costs are cheap. Photog at your con probably had a dye-sub printer, those cost about $2,000-3,000, and print costs are about $2 per 8x10 (paper/ink). Add to that the photographers time to prep, print and package, $25 is still a good on-site price.

The other bit is hauling and insuring all of the gear (lights, backdrops, cameras, printer, lenses, etc) and even getting it in the first place. This stuffs expensive! (Guy I talked to this past weekend was carrying an easy $35,000 in camera and lenses with him. That's just the camera and lens I might clarify!)

One other thing about pro-photos.
You own the print.
You do not own the image.
The Photographer (at least in the US and I do believe Canada as well) retains all rights to that image, unless you have an agreement.
That 'electronic image' fee should include an "Assignment of Rights" (or some similar wording) statement so that you can print it at the cheapie print shop, without hassle.

All my prints, have a clearly written copyright and rights retention statement on the back to impede copying. I have pissed off people by commenting on that when I see them at Walmart using the scanner to scan their pro pics...usually to the counter clerk who then informs them of the $200,000+ in fines involved. http://ttmb.tcon.ca/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif


So, bottom line:
$25 on-site prints is a fair price.
$10 electronic fee is dirt fn cheap!
No session fees is excellent.

I've seen mostly good things said about the photographer here. Sounds like you got a good pro. That's what the big stink last year was "photos sucked". So, you want quality, it will cost you. Sorry, that's just the way it i folks.



One other point. I hear you on the "use my own camera" bit. The bottom line on that is, the actors (and con) still want their cut, and if the con is paying me to be there as the "official" photographer, allowing you to do that cuts into my income, and costs them more $$, which translates to higher prices all around. Also, nothing is more annoying than having a dozen pocket camera's going off when I'm trying to work, screwing up my lighting, etc. So, it's either charge more and let everyone take their own shots, or limit it, and let the pro work.


There's the "pro" side of the argument.


Peace Y'all.

Bryan, trying to add common sense to that debate on the TTMB is like trying to put a square peg through a round hole. It just isn't going to work. I am surprised you keep making posts on there, for the most part they fall on dear ears. I do get a kick out of reading most of the other responses. I wouldn't waste much more time responding on there, it seems like there are too many people that just don't/didn't want TT to change. If that con doesn't get new blood in the form of new attendees, especially ones with money, it will die a quick death. Now Bryan go home, have a margarita, and listen to some Jimmy Buffett. That should calm you down. ;)

Bryan, trying to add common sense to that debate on the TTMB is like trying to put a square peg through a round hole. It just isn't going to work. I am surprised you keep making posts on there, for the most part they fall on dear ears. I do get a kick out of reading most of the other responses. I wouldn't waste much more time responding on there, it seems like there are too many people that just don't/didn't want TT to change. If that con doesn't get new blood in the form of new attendees, especially ones with money, it will die a quick death. Now Bryan go home, have a margarita, and listen to some Jimmy Buffett. That should calm you down. ;)

Thanks bud!!

I think I may just go home and have a cold Corona!!!

It is just that the "Kalel's of the world" just drive me nuts with this socialist mantra that all should be equal and just because they do not want to/won't work that everyone should cater to them too - so does this mean the photographer should charge piddly and the actor should do it for free/dirt cheap so "the Kalel's of the world" can have what they cannot afford!?!

On a second issueI have not posted on the TTMB - the "Disabled Method" at TT/P is getting a bit abused, I think totally that the physically challenged should get some special treatment in lines - no question but seeing people "put on a limp" to get to thefront of the autograph line and then can easily walk all over the convention and stroll the dealers room - does irk me - do not abuse what the real physically challenged deserve!! There were a few culprits doing this -again irking me!!

I'm looking forward to seeing replies to my posts.....should be quite entertaining, LOL!!!!

On a second issueI have not posted on the TTMB - the "Disabled Method" at TT/P is getting a bit abused, I think totally that the physically challenged should get some special treatment in lines - no question but seeing people "put on a limp" to get to thefront of the autograph line and then can easily walk all over the convention and stroll the dealers room - does irk me - do not abuse what the real physically challenged deserve!! There were a few culprits doing this -again irking me!!

Look, we need to stop picking on the Klingons....they are an endangered species. :)

seriously, there should be some verification required.

Look, we need to stop picking on the Klingons....they are an endangered species. :)

seriously, there should be some verification required.

there are a pair of guys that are the worst for this - he walks all oer the con, all over the dealers room and has barely a noticeable limp in his gait but near the autpgraph room it is hobble hobble hobble and his buddy tags along with him - drives me bonkers!

As for Klingons...they can go first...better than a Batleth to my head!! ;)

To be honest I am annoyed at the $10 electronic fee thing.
I understand why they have it, that's fine.

There was no infomation or mention about the $10 electronic fee
- on the website
- in the program book
- at the actual photo session

It makes me feel like they decided to apply the charge AFTER the convention.

It would have made sense for people to pay the $10 while at the photo session and left their email address. Now it's a big hassle.

FYI... I emailed them about getting a copy last Thursday and I have not recieved a response. We shall see what happens.

To be honest I am annoyed at the $10 electronic fee thing.
I understand why they have it, that's fine.

There was no infomation or mention about the $10 electronic fee
- on the website
- in the program book
- at the actual photo session

It makes me feel like they decided to apply the charge AFTER the convention.

It would have made sense for people to pay the $10 while at the photo session and left their email address. Now it's a big hassle.

FYI... I emailed them about getting a copy last Thursday and I have not recieved a response. We shall see what happens.

I agree Sara, actually your idea of paying the $10 at the session and then just having them email it to us is a good idea - that would have been smart!

I may be ok paying the $10 if I know who is getting this money (Actor? Photographer? TT/P? Ronald Mcdonald House?) or how the money is being apportioned.

Definitely the $10 needed to be called up front.

The $10 fee is really cheap, IMO. Looks like the area of complaint is that no one was told of the fee ahead of time, so the surprise s the piss-off point.

Next year, if they have this person back, they should have all fees clearly postd in advance.

As to this year, collecting it at the con would have been the most efficient way. In fact, if the hotel has wireless internet, they could have processed the image, and mailed it from there, so it would be in your inbox when you got home.

The $10 fee is really cheap, IMO. Looks like the area of complaint is that no one was told of the fee ahead of time, so the surprise s the piss-off point.

Next year, if they have this person back, they should have all fees clearly postd in advance.

As to this year, collecting it at the con would have been the most efficient way. In fact, if the hotel has wireless internet, they could have processed the image, and mailed it from there, so it would be in your inbox when you got home.

You got it Bob, actually the $25 CDN price for the photo and the $10 CDN price for the .JPG are very reasonable. I think it is the fact there was nothing telling you that it would be $10 CDN for the .JPG is the flash point here.

Other than the 1 person who got an out-of-focus picture there is really no other complaint at all about the photo sessions and the photographer.

Should be interesting to find out how we have to pay the $10 CDN (check, PayPal, Money Order,etc) and how long it takes to get a reply and receive the .JPG (I will be emailing Tcon.ca later this week about getting my .JPG from the pic Jackie and I got from Katee Sackhoff).

I think most people feel the same about a certain member's posts. It's pretty hard to even read and understand his posts, let alone agree with them.

I also agree that if there was a $10 fee, they should have disclosed that up front. Sounds like it was a mistake in signage.

If the extra $10 for a digital copy is because of people wanting to take one picture with multiple people and then distributing the digital version, then perhaps it would be more fair to charge for extra people. But it sounds like there's more to it than that.

I think the main problem is that people get used to things being a certain way, and then feel they are entitled to it. Because photos used to be see inexpensive, people who have been attending the convention for a long time start to feel that's what a fair price is. When the prices had to go up, it seems like a shock and seems unfair. Not everyone goes to other conventions, so TT may be their only reference point.

Cons charge what they have to do so to survive. It's pure economics of scale here. I think Stephen said the annual budget was 100,000 or so.
Assuming 1500 paid members at an average of $65 each, thats only $97,500. Add in table fees, ad fees, donations, and assorted other "add-on" fees, it looks like they just make budget each year.

Anime North by comparison (http://www.animecons.com/events/info.shtml/889), had 11,000 paid attendees, at an rough average of $40 per. That's $440,000, or more than 4 times the gross of TT. While their expenses are also higher, the economics of scale allows them to charge less for a base membership while providing a comparable level of service. It's interesting to note AN's rates are higher this year.

If TT could double their steady core attendance, they could afford to drop their weekend rate $10 or so, and still have more money to work with, and thereby offer more services/guests/features accordingly. (2,500 paid * $55 per = $137, 500 or $40,000 more gross.)

Their problem is, getting the numbers to come in. They've sounded content to be a 1,500-1,800 person event though, as scaling up seems to intimidate them.

For TT to survive, they have to manage their dwindling resources in a competitive market as best as they can, and hope that the decisions they are making help to rejuvenate the event so it can turn around and grow again.

With the photos, people will pay for 1 group shot, then take the print down to the budget photo copier place (who ignores copyright concerns) and run off prints for everyone for $2 each, or scan it and post it everywhere. While it's cheaper, it's still wrong.

there are a pair of guys that are the worst for this - he walks all oer the con, all over the dealers room and has barely a noticeable limp in his gait but near the autpgraph room it is hobble hobble hobble and his buddy tags along with him - drives me bonkers!

Bryan, this is the kind of stuff you should bring to the atention of the organizers of the convention on the spot. I appreciate you mentioning this, but thanks to the wonders of the internet, people lately have had the tenency to take home their gripes and post it to the internet without even alerting people first hand to problems. You're a straight up guy, go and tell someone about this.

I don't know what can be done that moment but something to take note of would be appreciated if you really want to help curb this abuse of trust.

Bryan, this is the kind of stuff you should bring to the atention of the organizers of the convention on the spot. I appreciate you mentioning this, but thanks to the wonders of the internet, people lately have had the tenency to take home their gripes and post it to the internet without even alerting people first hand to problems. You're a straight up guy, go and tell someone about this.

I don't know what can be done that moment but something to take note of would be appreciated if you really want to help curb this abuse of trust.

I hear you Sid and trust me I thought about it...but...in this "politically correct" city/Country we live in there is no way I would put anyone "on the spot" from Polaris to approach someone and question their "disability"...that could cause some grief...guess I just have to accept some people do anything to "get ahead" aqnd "take advantage".

I am always hoping "like Dear Abby" someone reads something and thinks...oh my is that how it looks? Is that me?....I know wishful thinking...but I have to have faith in humanity that not everyone wants to be another "me first" only attitude.

Funny though with these two I am speaking of, they have no trouble lining up in the regular line at SFX for 1.5 - 2 hours to get autographs...I know I see them at every TT/P and SFX!!

I really think it is great how TT/P treats the "Physically Challenged" and if one or two louts want to abuse it..guess it will always happen..just one of those things I hate to see people take advantage of others generosity.

I hear you Sid and trust me I thought about it...but...in this "politically correct" city/Country we live in there is no way I would put anyone "on the spot" from Polaris to approach someone and question their "disability"...that could cause some grief...guess I just have to accept some people do anything to "get ahead" aqnd "take advantage".

I am always hoping "like Dear Abby" someone reads something and thinks...oh my is that how it looks? Is that me?....I know wishful thinking...but I have to have faith in humanity that not everyone wants to be another "me first" only attitude.

Funny though with these two I am speaking of, they have no trouble lining up in the regular line at SFX for 1.5 - 2 hours to get autographs...I know I see them at every TT/P and SFX!!

I really think it is great how TT/P treats the "Physically Challenged" and if one or two louts want to abuse it..guess it will always happen..just one of those things I hate to see people take advantage of others generosity.

Yeah, good stuff. And I will bring your concerns forward as I am also concerned with such accomodations for those that need it abused. I suspect it was brought up at a meeting, but it's not my place to say.

Funny though with these two I am speaking of, they have no trouble lining up in the regular line at SFX for 1.5 - 2 hours to get autographs...I know I see them at every TT/P and SFX!!

Now I'm really curious. Ya know, with all the marvels of modern digital photography and how easy it is to share photos... There might be some unofficial way you could use the time index feature in the camera to show how long they waited - and then certain person could forward that on to show others.

But this is all in theory, riiiiight ;)

Now I'm really curious. Ya know, with all the marvels of modern digital photography and how easy it is to share photos... There might be some unofficial way you could use the time index feature in the camera to show how long they waited - and then certain person could forward that on to show others.

But this is all in theory, riiiiight ;)

"Hypothetically" at a show like SFX that may be possible. ;)

Now I'm really curious. Ya know, with all the marvels of modern digital photography and how easy it is to share photos... There might be some unofficial way you could use the time index feature in the camera to show how long they waited - and then certain person could forward that on to show others.

But this is all in theory, riiiiight ;)

Well, Well, Well.....let's just say I saw this "red-headed" person with their "heavy-set" friend at SFX on Saturday in the Tricia Helfer autograph line and lo-and-behold he is "walking quickly" to get in the autograph line where we all had to stand on concrete for over 90 minutes and he had no issues at all and ecven had time to go to another line to get an autograph and get back in Tricia's line - no limo whatsoever, no problems whatsoever...makes me go hmmmmmm.

WAIT...there's more...what happens next, oh he gets in Charisma Carpenter's autograph line for about another 90 minutes with no issues...oh wait there he goes walking normal (and fast) to another autograph line....hmmm...I see.

Did I take video/pics of this...I decided not to...not that T.J., John and I were not amused watching this "so self proclaimed" TT/P disabled walk better than us but it just shows to me what some people will do to take advantage of people that are really trying to make a difference in the lives of REAL people that need it.

There was a young man in full oxygen mask/wheelchair etc that was at the front AND deserved to be treated special as his needs required this and this is what TT/P tries to accomodate with the Disability Needs group - not these yahoos that "fake" and get treated as such - just sad...very sad.